Can we please just keep the preachers out of this? -- Last Chance Democracy Cafe

http://www.lastchancedemocracycafe.com/?p=1380


I lost my father a year-and-a-half ago at the ripe old age of 84. Although, as an aside, there’s no age that’s “ripe” enough when it’s your own father, is there?

For a good portion of his life, Dad was an active minister in the United Church of Christ. Eventually he grew weary of church politics, went back to school for his doctorate and became a sociology professor (where he then, of course, had to put up with academic politics, but that’s a different story). During the last 40 plus years of his life, while he remained an ordained minister and would on occasion fill in on a Sunday, he was never again a church pastor.

So I was a bit surprised when, during his final illness, it became obvious to me that while he was certainly proud of his years spent teaching, at the end of the day he considered himself first and foremost a minister of the United Church of Christ.

It was part of his essence.

And I’m pretty sure I know what Dad’s response would have been, were he still here, to the words of Jeremiah Wright and, per the latest dustup, Father Michael Pfleger: he would have dismissed the whole issue as stupid and insisted that what they say at the pulpit is between them and their congregations and denominations.

Simply put: it’s nobody else’s damn business.

And, no, Dad, though liberal, never said anything nearly as controversial as the now famous words of Rev. Wright or the increasingly famous words of Father Pfleger: his was a subtler approach.

He did, however, occasionally say things capable of causing a stir. One time, in the middle 1960s, for example, he offered a very mild comment on the Vietnam War during a sermon, causing our next door neighbor to storm out of the church in protest (they remained on friendly terms afterwards).

But most of the arguably controversial things — and there weren’t that many of them — Dad said from the pulpit were Scriptural in origin. The Christian faith, after all, has some fairly revolutionary beliefs — things right wing Bible-thumpers often try to ignore (although some are now doing better). Things, for example, having to do with the duty the materially comfortable owe to the poor.

There is very little in our current “greed is good” culture, after all, that can easily be squared with the teachings of Jesus Christ, whatever Rolex wearing televangelists may from time to time claim.

So speaking as a PK (preacher’s kid), let me let you in on a little secret. Getting under people’s skin — sometimes even saying “outrageous” things — is part of a minister’s job. Sermons are supposed to get people thinking, shake them up a little. They can be freewheeling, filled with spontaneous expression. On occasion they can even be over the top and offensive. The idea, of course, is to shake us out of our complacency.

Political correctness and preaching have very little in common.

Father Pfleger’s words about Hillary Clinton, to my ear at least, were, in fact, unfortunate and even offensive. But they were made during a religious service as part of a pastor’s attempt to make a point, whether we agree with it or not, about white attitudes of entitlement. It was not a stump speech made as part of a political campaign.

Pfleger himself is politically active, at least in the sense of being a community activist (where he has done many good things), but at the time he made the statements at issue he was preaching as a clergyman. If he went over the line in the small portion of his sermon that’s currently swimming across the Internet, that’s an issue between him and the congregation.

It’s a somewhat different story, of course, when a preacher, such as Rev. John Hagee, intentionally injects his faith into the political process by arguing that his religious visions or traditions should become the template for American political life. Where that’s true, those visions and traditions become fair game. But even then I wonder if we haven’t gone too far in the direction of flyspecking old sermons looking for something to use against a candidate associated with the pastor in question.

This is a road that will lead nowhere but to grief for both religion and public discourse in this nation. It needs to stop now.

THE LAST CHANCE DEMOCRACY CAFE

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Accountable for others' words and actions?

If we are to be held accountable for words and actions of associates, acquaintances, and friends, we are all in a bunch of trouble. The guilt by association game is a dangerous one, opening up a big can of worms. If it is to be used against one, it is fair game to be used against all. Too bad the can has been already opened.

Never before - Never Again

I do not recall, in recent memory anyway, that news tv camera crews went into a church. Not during a national presidential primary, or any political campaign. Trinity United Church of Christ is a house of worship. The Church does not make public policy. Politics is public discourse. Religion is a private thing. And, the two should be kept separate. The Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, decided so. The result to mix the two, is what we have seen in this election campaign. And, it's been a disgrace. Political pundits, most of whom have never been inside a church that has a black Pastor, talking about that, about which they know nothing. I agree with the author of this comment. Keep the preachers out of it.

Not the Medias fault

Quit Blaming the media for this disgraceful church they allowed this not the media this was on Youtube that church is responsible for this being made public! So why are they doing this.

Keep all gods, magic, leprechauns, etc out of it

We are a weird, scarry, ignorant country. Why do we allow - let alone insist that - our elected leaders exhibit their irrational subscription to ancient magical codes before they can be considered for secular political office? Instead of criticizing the candidates for the political comments of their preachers, we should lambaste them simply on the basis of their associations with what are essentially witch-doctors, astrologers, and charlatans. If religion is to be treated as a valid component of political campaigns, then we shouldn't be sqeamish about giving reason the same degree of respect. Ken Duerksen Oxford, Ohio

Religion vs. Politics

I thought the idea of the founding fathers was to SEPARATE CHURCH & STATE! What a concept.

I could not agree more.

Osteen seems to be a truly good man. If I still needed church, I would look for someone like him. But, I find what I need in nature; no politics deep in the forest or in a mountain meadow or on the sea shore at dawn. Too much religious insanity out there for me, and that's the most dangerous kind of insanity. People will do more heinous things in the name of religion than just about anything else I can think of, even when they are really doing it as worship of the golden calf.

Let's keep the preachers out of this

Why all of the uproar? We all know that this is how Hillary feels. At least some of us know this, you can see it in her eyes and hear it when she is throwing out her petty little digs at Sen. Obama. Neither this man nor Jeremiah Wright would have ever made the news if the candidate was John Edwards.

Can we please just keep the preachers out of this?

Judging by the congregation's response to the priest's words, they loved it. It suggests that they have long shared his opinions. It is, of course,"whining" and "pathetic" should he be held accountable for his insulting remarks. It is amazing to me that Obama supporters, after having virtually won the nomination, believe it is in their interest to mock and humiliate and belittle Clinton and her supporters. How does this serve you? How does this serve Obama? How, on Earth, did this priest believe he was serving Obama and his quest to unite the country? This priest made a terrible choice. Leave the preachers out indeed.

Excuse Much - The Whiners Accuse US of Whining?

I think you need to read this thumb-sucker by Peggy Noonan in the WALL STREET JOURNAL about how real women leaders dealt with sexism, as opposed to whining "You're just picking on Hil b/c she's a GIRRRLLLLLLL!!!! WAAAAHHH!!!"

Yes - I'm recommending a column by a former Reagan speechwriter...published in a Murdoch-owned newspaper. That I am doing so should show you in just how much contempt most of the people you're counting on to vote for Hillary Clinton hold her in - and why....

pathetic

And we can just only guess why you would use a Nasty republican Whore to bash Clinton and a trash paper that will ripp Obama a new one and Mrs Obama will be made the Joke of the World in that Rag guess you want a Republican Elected!

Citing Peggy Noonan ...

... on how REAL women leaders respond to sexism?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ......

It Proves, Yman, That Even a Stopped Clock is Right Twice a Day

as opposed to you, say, who's never been right about anything once, and prefers to shriek, whine, blame everyone other than yourself and your hand-picked closet NeoKon Khrister Right gal, and thus destroy your own party (just like Hillary's doing, in fact) rather than support Obama's candidacy like a real man....

Sure "Doc" ...

"Real" men support Obama's candidacy? Then why are YOU supporting him? And Clinton is a "hand-picked closet NeoKon Khrister Right gal"? Wow .... however did you manage to vote for her? How many times did you pull the lever for her? I mean ................ that's gotta make someone feel like a complete idiot!

Hey! Why not check with Phyllis Schlafly to see how "real" women leaders respond to sexism? Maybe Ann Coulter ...
Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahah ...........

Can we please just keep the preachers out of this? Maybe Not

Rev. Hagee chose not to keep his sermons between himself and his congregation when he decided to broadcast them on Christian radio and television networks worldwide. Hagee's hate-speech is no longer a well-kept secret from which a candidate can claim ignorance. McCain pursued the endorsement of Hagee, and the other hate-monger, Parsley, in order to improve his credentials with evangelicals, whose support he desperately needs in the election. This is relevant. Either McCain chose to accept Hagee's world view to enhance his chances in the election, or he chose to ignore it for the same reason. If it is the latter, then McCain is so incompetent at choosing the people who surround him that he should not be considered a viable candidate for president. Voters should know who is counseling the candidates. The flap about Rev. Wright's sermon can not be compared. While you may find his expressions offensive, they were used in the context of a sermon about the poor and underprivileged in America. That can not be compared to Hagee, who has embraced and disseminated a theology of hatred. Wright's sermons about the needy and oppressed, regardless of his choice of words, contain messages that all religious leaders of all faiths should take to heart.

That's what I certainly think, PD

I'm a middle-aged white working-class Bitter-American - and I understand perfectly what Wright was saying, and moreover think he was a LOT more right than he was wrong in saying it. Haggee and Parsley, OTOH, are the kind of vicious racist hatemongering politicos who the NeoKon Khrister Right tries fobbing off as "religious leaders" - a lot of politicians in Holy Joe robes (slap at Lieberman, the Token Jew of the Khrister Right, totally intentional!).

As for Father Pfleger? Well, I'm reminded of a line from some Indiana Jones knockoff movie where the hero, listening to the heroine threaten an army of villains with all the incredible things the hero has done to kill off his enemies in the past, moans softly, "I beg you NOT to help me...!"

Apparently we can't

...or at least they can't in HillaryWorld. And when you yawn and say this is SO "last quarter," they revert to "well the media doesn't think so." Like anyone with a brain thinks the MSM oughta be dictating what's important at this point. Like HillaryWorld gave a sh*t about what the media says when what they really thought was that they could get away with more "Hillary is a victim" whining. It's so pathetic. Will the last one out of democracy please turn out the lights? Apphouse50

Just wanted to say - this whole flap is stupid

Some priest who's donated money to Obama ranks out on Hillary - and it's a Big Deal? WTF?

No its Not

Why don't you ask the thousands of Children that were abused at the Hands of these PREADATORS or is that acceptable in the new Democratic Party? And this is from someone who got a first hand experience Religion is nothing more than being given the right to do harm to others and then say forgive me Jesus and then go right back and do it again its at the heart of all that is Evil in this World white or Black!

Issues Much, Tpagy?

Yes, he's a Catholic Priest - and yes, he was mean to Hillary Clinton in public. So...in your book that makes Obama a pedophile, then? Is THAT what you're saying - never mind that Father Pfleger was a guest preacher at Rev. Wright's Trinity UCoC, on a Sunday Obama wasn't even there? With that kind of logic, no wonder you Clinton Supporters think Hillary's "really winning" the nomination!

Brother! The only GOOD thing about this election year is that the Rethugs are (finally!) at each others' throats just a bit worse than WE normally are! Though I'm sure that, being good Libburuls, we'll somehow manage (once again!) to squabble and "What About Me Me ME!?!?!?!?" so much that we'll boldly yank defeat from the jaws of victory....

No its Not

Why don't you ask the thousands of Children that were abused at the Hands of these PREADATORS or is that acceptable in the new Democratic Party? And this is from someone who got a first hand experience Religion is nothing more than being given the right to do harm to others and then say forgive me Jesus and then go right back and do it again its at the heart of all that is Evil in this World white or Black!

I hate to say this...

I think Barack Obama should just say.."Enough!, I'll do my praying at home" who needs a church?.....religion has become a "tool" to use against or in favor of, a politician...I am sick of the preachers who bring politics to the pulpit...if they want to be in politics and mouth off..pay taxes....or shut the F**k up!!...

Well - actually, yeah....

Unfortunately, too many people take "chuchgoing" as a sign of A Good Person - even after EIGHT YEARS of the Hypocrite and Traitor Rampaging Born-Again Bush!

I respectfully disagree..

The righteous b.s. preached by clergymen/snake oil salesmen of all faiths is the very reason most people -including myself -have stopped going to church and will likely not be going back any time soon.

It's easy for whites to both snicker and scream at what's said behind African American churches -because while it may be shocking, it's usually the stark truth of the matter and serves the public interest by revealing the secret inner thoughts of that community's mindset.
Because that's at the heart of the issue you raise - the truth. We certainly don't hear it from the media and the medai only allows those voices it wants heard.

So, if it takes youtube to reveal to the public a truth that the public should know, and who can then decide for themselves the next course of action to take - then I say VIVA YOUTUBE.

While white clergymen prefer to hide their own immoral thoughts and conduct by continually beating everyone else down for their failings, and then once down in the dirt promise to relieve the sinners of their sins for a monthy tithe their flock can hardly afford.
Look at this favorite BILLIONAIRE from the white community's church and tell me we need to keep this guy hidden from the public:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Jik5ZbWjQ

No, we need more light into every church, whether Jewish or Muslim , Baptist or Presbyterian. We need to rout out guys like this.

Of the few decent clergyman around today, I'd be in church right now if there was a nearby service and the preacher was Joel Osteen.

He preaches something of what Obamas also does - an uplifting - you can do it - I'll be at your side - kind of attitude that invigorates and encourages us all to bigger and better places.

Nationalism is not terrorism. And an adversary is not an enemy.